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I tried a new web designer for one of my projects. After many tries he build a really nice design for my webpage and sent me the files. Now I wondered a much, because he only slice it in Photoshop - 20 images (very very bad sliced, e.g. borders with content in one image) and all complete 1 table structure HTML file.

When I asked him to do it in CSS, he said he can't, he doesn't know how, he is only a designer. His argument was: In his 4,5 year experience nobody asked for a sliced design, all customers would only have the PSD file and slice and create the HTML on their own. And - he added - table structures are completly normal in web design.

So, my question: Am I old or is he?

Until now, I have ever build a webpage with DIV and CSS, never used table until you really needed a table structured information to show. That's what I learn.

Please tell me your opinion and how to handle with the actual situation.

Gumbo
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PassionateDeveloper
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  • Just out of curiosity why do you care if it's CSS or made with Tables if the site looks good? As a developer I always use CSS, but I just wonder why you care about it. – Bjorn Dec 06 '09 at 02:00
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    The general opinion is strongly against the use of tables for layout, and rightly so. See http://stackoverflow.com/questions/83073/why-not-use-tables-for-layout-in-html for an exhaustive discussion. There are certain special cases in which a five-line table construct can save you tons of tedious CSS, hours of hacking and the final realization that it can't be done without some additional Javascript. In those cases, I am not ashamed to use tables. But the general direction is, leave tables for tabular data and use more sensible elements for everything else. – Pekka Dec 06 '09 at 06:11
  • See http://stackoverflow.com/questions/83073/why-not-use-tables-for-layout-in-html for tables vs CSS. – timday Jan 20 '10 at 09:37

10 Answers10

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His argument was: In his 4,5 year experience nobody asked for a sliced design, all customers would only have the PSD file and slice and create the HTML on their own.

This I find a valid argument. The creation of a design is one task; the creation a the HTML structure out of the design a entirely different one, and not being able to create the HTML does not make you any less of a designer.

And - he added - table structures are completly normal in web design.

This was a valid argument in 1999, but is not any more.

If the main job he gets paid for is to design, and he had to create the HTML because you pressured him or because of time constraints or whatever, I'd say cut your losses, pay him, forget about it and have a CSS layout done elsewhere.

If he actually offered to create HTML for you, for money, and delivered a sliced table layout, I'd say that is not good work by the standards of 2009. Personally, I would not accept that if I were the client, and force him to do it again or refund the money.

Pekka
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    I disagree w/ your first statement... If you label yourself as a WEB designer... there should be a certain unspoken attachment to that title that you practice or, at the very least, understand the current trends and techniques of how to design/layout a HTML page. WEB = EVER CHANGING... learning how to design a page in 1999 does not make you a WEB designer 10 years later... nor will it make current WEB designers hold that title 10 years from now if they don't keep up with how web design evolves... You can't call yourself a Doctor if you can't do anything but make chicken soup... – luckykind Dec 06 '09 at 06:52
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    For a (classic, print oriented) designer to say that they create web pages, but creating HTML is not part of their field of work is fine. Many designers work that way. But if you actively offer a finished HTMLized product, you have to be up to standards. – Pekka Dec 06 '09 at 15:33
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sounds like a graphic designer, not a web designer

always be specific about the format of deliverables

Steven A. Lowe
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  • Agreed - this sort of thing needs to be worked out before any work is started so there are no surprises. – jeffff Dec 06 '09 at 02:09
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Tables are very bad and old practice for design. You are correct to use css and divs. A "web designer" should be versed in css in order to produce their designs.

I would look for a different designer.

Daniel A. White
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I'd like to add that in my experience (and this is hardly a rule, I'm sure), Web designers who are not able to code a layout into CSS/XHTML lack a certain understanding of the way Web pages often need to expand and contract based on content. This is especially true when designing for a CMS type system, or for a site that may require variable text sizes. The lack of understanding in these areas leads to issues with the way designs are put together on a fundamental level, and I have often found myself with a design that doesn't "work" in the end.

Aaron Ransley
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    Huh? Tables expand and contract just fine, in some cases much better. – Rob Dec 06 '09 at 06:02
  • @Rob, I more meant that when a designer cannot create markup for a design, be it using CSS, tables, or some combination thereof, there tends to be a lack of understanding as to how the design is often expected to expand and contract. Again, only in my experience. – Aaron Ransley Dec 07 '09 at 02:39
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If he is a real web designer he should know CSS.

David Robles
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  • Sry for missunderstanding, he is a WebDesigner – PassionateDeveloper Dec 06 '09 at 00:33
  • *"A Web Designer is a superset of a Designer."* - that is not necessarily universally true. – Pekka Dec 06 '09 at 00:35
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    I think a web designer in these days MUST do it with CSS, if he doesn't, then he is very very outdated. Maybe you could get the PSD images and give them to a real web designer to put everything in css style? – David Robles Dec 06 '09 at 00:36
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    If he can't turn a Photoshop design into HTML/CSS without using tables, he most certainly is no webdesigner – Benjamin Wohlwend Dec 06 '09 at 00:36
  • @piquadrat I would disagree, he is a web designer, just not a web developer. A web designer would be defined as someone who produces visual and layout, typography etc, suitable for a website. Its the developers job to create the html,css,etc. Of course, many web designer do both jobs, but it seems that this one does not. – Nico Burns Dec 06 '09 at 00:42
  • @Nico: let me rephrase that: a webdesigner should be somewhat knowledgable in semantic HTML and CSS. You have to know what the constraints of the browser are to make good designs for it. – Benjamin Wohlwend Dec 06 '09 at 22:55
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In answer to your question - yes, a table based layout is outdated and you need/want a css based one.

However, it sounds like the person you hired is generally just a web designer (Does visual design and layout) as opposed to a web developer (does the coding part of a website).

Many/most people who call themselves web designers do both of these jobs, and he should have explained to you before you hired him if he was only going to do the designing part, however, it does seem that he is a designer, not a developer, which is why his code skills are not so brilliant.

Consider hiring a separate web developer to create the website from the PSD file that your designer gives you.

Nico Burns
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It seems that your designer is a draftsman, but he can't create HTML layouts. Tables are only for tabular content and will put big restrictions to your layout. My opinion is that you should regard him as somebody that can draw, but don't ask him to do anything else, because he will mess up everything.

nacmartin
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Tables functionally will work, and even validate, but they are a terrible practice for layout.

The designer admittedly has little knowledge of HTML & CSS. Perhaps his clients typically use a PSD to XHTML service for code, or something similar. I have not used one of these services personally, but you may want to look into that if you need a quick turnaround, but lack CSS knowledge.

Taylor D. Edmiston
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If you're not comfortable turning the PSD file into XHTML, there are a variety of services that can do it for you for a few hundred dollars such as w3-markup.com.

Bryce Roney
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Like most people here, I would concur that tables are not the mainstay of 2009 web layout and I can say that I NEVER used a table for layout - heck I couldn't if I tried. To answer your question - He is old.

Moshe
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